For the purposes of this Toisan Descendant blog, I will
refer to the language as the Toisanese
language. I will also use Jyutping pronunciations to pronounce the
Toisanese language. I will rarely use pinyin for Mandarin speakers.
臺山話 – In Cantonese, traditional characters (toi4 saan1 waa2)
The spelling of
Toisanese/Toishanese/Toishaanese is derived from Cantonese pronounciations.
The spelling of
“Toishan” is recognized by the United States Post Office, the Defence Language
Institute, and the U.S. Census Bureau.
In Toisanese (hoi4 saan3 waa2)
The spelling of
Hoisanese was derived from the local pronunciation by locals, but this term is
not used in literature.
台山话 - In
Mandarin, simplified characters (2 1 4)
The spelling, Taishanese,
is derived from Mandarin pronunciation. This particular term is the most
popular and widely-used term used in literature.
台山話 – I am more familiar with
this character combination to describe Toisanese and will adopt this term
instead for my Toisan Descendant blog.
Toisanese is spoken in Southern China areas like Guangzhou,
Guangdong, Peral River Delta, Hainan, Toisan, Hong Kong, popular U.S> metro
locations in California, New York City, Canada, and Vietnam. Wikipedia
estimates that 1-2 million people speak Toisanese.
Source: wikipedia
The Toisanese language is a Chinese dialect that has
similarities to both Cantonese and Mandarin, though more Cantonese than
Mandarin. However, Toisanese is not an official language of any country, which
is why you are less likely to encounter the language. Many Chinese immigrated to
the United States especially from the mid 19th century to the late 20th
century. Personally, I know that my grandma and parents came to New York in the
1960’s after a brief stay in Canada.
Unless You’re From Guangzhou…
While sitting in on my first Cantonese I class, I got to
know some of the students. One student, an older woman, introduced herself and
told the class that she spoke Toisanese
and wanted to learn Cantonese because everybody seems to be speaking it
around her. I was puzzled by her statement because in my family, we all
understand both Cantonese and Toisanese.
Later that day, I returned to my grandma’s apartment to ask
my grandma if all Toisanese people knew how to speak Cantonese. My grandma
replied, “no.”
Then, I wondered out loud in Cantonese. How come we
understand Cantonese so easily then?
My grandma simply replied, “Because we are from Guangzhou.”
Slowly, this information sunk into my mind. Why did I assume
that everybody lived in Toisan? Of course, my roots are there, but that didn’t
mean that nobody traveled to other parts of China. I slowly began to imagine
what it would be like to make the great journey from Toisan to Guangzhou.
To sum up my experience, do not assume that all Toisanese
people can understand Cantonese!
Even though Mandarin is the national language of China and
Mandarin is taught and spoken in schools, Toisanese people in Toisan still
regard Mandarin as a foreign language since they do not primarily speak
Mandarin. On the other hand, Cantonese still remains an influential language
for Toisanese people due to its geographical influence.
I hope you enjoyed my little introduction to Toisanese. I am still in the middle of researching more information!
Hi I'm Pete.
ReplyDeleteI don't really speak toisan at all well, I 'mangle' it lol. But it just seemed more important now that my mom is getting on in years. I'm trying to figure out what village she was from. I can't read or write chinese either, I'm really battin' a .1000. But I just wanted to say I don't think we're only two people out there trying to figure out more info on our family history. All the best with the blog, I'll check in from time to time.
Pete
Thanks Pete for your interest in Toisan Descendant. I'm not that great at speaking Toisanese either, but my listening comprehension is a lot better. I would probably mix my Toisanese with my Cantonese together. I went ancestor worshipping last week and saw the name of the Toisanese village my grandfather came from, but I failed to write it down. I'm sure I have a picture of it from the past. When I do, I will look up this information.
ReplyDeleteAgain, thanks for your interest, Pete. I'm not sure which direction I want to take this blog, after the initial introductory. I might keep adding random terminology for each post, keeping it short. Right now, I'm collecting lots of vocabulary by listening to my family speak.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI've been working on a Tosianese resource site (which includes an audio word dictionary) for a while. Please check:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.stephen-li.com/TaishaneseVocabulary/Taishanese.html
Thank you for this!
DeleteNice site, Steven!
ReplyDeleteI grew up speaking what I thought was Chinese or my parents language. Later on I learn it was Cantonese and now I find it might be Toisan. Wow, talk about being ignorant of my roots. Now I am looking at it with new interest. No longer being prejudiced or ashamed. I want to just know. Thanks for providing this forum.
ReplyDeleteTry www.taishanproject.com
DeleteIt is a new website with lots of Taishan photos.
Hello Mary, thanks for coming to the site. Nowadays, I realized that a lot of Cantonese I speak has a lot of Toisanese terms mixed in. I always thought what I spoke was purely Cantonese, but that is not always the case. For example, recently, in Cantonese class, a student asked how to say drizzling rain and I automatically thought, 洒雨 "saa2 jyu5 in Cantonese, but my teacher, native to Hong Kong, hesitated and said that nobody in Hong Kong would say that. It was probably a Toisanese term. Ha! Don't worry, I plan to introduce more vocabulary to this blog. I am just posting it as I have free time. I notice that a lot of terms I speak in Cantonese are different: 燒肉 (Hong Kong term) vs 火肉 (Toisanese term) for roasted pork.
ReplyDeleteHei! I am malaysian and I was told that my great grandfather from toishan! I have been wanted to search for my root and I just booked a flight to Guangzhou. I have no idea where I should start. I don't speak or read chinese but i do speak cantonese but I believe its already been localized with our malaysian culture.
ReplyDeleteNice to meet you Jon! It's always interesting to read other people's experiences. Have fun in Guangzhou!
DeleteJon T. Go to Al Chinn's website: http://houseofchinn.com/index.html
DeleteAl Chinn provides a detailed explanation of the four counties of Guangdong province and the differences between the different counties and how to search for your ancestors.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI have a somewhat funny, yet similar experience to everyone else that commented here. I am 22 years old, and having grown up hearing Toisanese from my grandparents, I understand it pretty well, but I prefer not to actually speak it, for my accent is not that great. Due to my father recently marrying a woman from Hong Kong, I am now increasingly speaking in Cantonese and understanding that more. I am sad that soon my grandparents won't be here, and I won't hear this dialect on a daily basis anymore. It is a rare treasure that is slowly dying out unfortunately.
ReplyDeleteHi soldme32! Because I want to retain what little Toisanese I know from my family, I decided to start this blog to help me remember it forever. I didn't appreciate it much when I was younger, but I really am regretting it now. I joined a Facebook group for Toisanese speakers and realized that I didn't know a lot of Toisanese after all! I want to retain as much information as possible on this language and spread it to the world.
DeleteHi Karen - what is the FB group that you reference? I just stumbled upon this blog and am so thankful that you are doing this.
DeleteHello, the Facebook page is a closed group, so please request to join: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Ilovetoisan
DeleteKaren: My grandfather came from Toisan province to Canada in 1905. His surname was Lee. I have over 100 years of photographs that show my grandfather in China and Canada. The Lee benevolent association in Calgary is 104 years old and trace their family ancestor to Lao Tzu. I can trace my family tree back to Huang Di, the first yellow emperor of China. You should write down the stories told to you by your grandmother to remember your Chinese roots. In mainland China on the wall of every middle school are two large maps ---one map is of China and the other map is the map of the world. Under the map of China it states remember that you were born in China. Under the map of the world, it states "no matter where you go in the world, you will always carry inside you the heart and stomach of china. Most overseas Chinese have assimilated into their new countries and have failed to keep in touch with their Chinese heritage and thus lose their identity of what it means to be Chinese.
ReplyDeleteThat was beautifully written, Ron. I went ancestor worshiping yesterday, and I learned something new about my grandfather's generation. Apparently, when my grandfather was born, he was born with a given name "York Hong" (not sure of the first Chinese character) according to his generational line who uses the same character "York." When my grandfather married my grandmother, it was customary to change his name during that time. My grandfather's name hence became "Dat Hong." This tradition of changing names has been lost during my father's generation, but I found that to be such a fascinating fact. Also, I never realized that my grandfather had an English name as well: John, which my Aunt believes sounds like "York," but that's a bit of a stretch to me. Anyway, on my grandfather's tombstone, it states in English that his name is "York Hong" but in Chinese, his name is written in Chinese as "Dat Hong." The names don't match and it's interesting to know why. I have no idea how to trace my roots, but it's enough for me to know at least a bit about my grandparents and even my great grandparents. Ronald, you have a rich family history and I hope you can pass it to future generations and even the world. I'm sure a lot of people would be fascinated with it. I think most people are not interested in it because they do not understand it, but once they start understanding it a little bit, I'm sure they would want to know and learn more!
ReplyDeleteTraditionally, the Chinese would give their surname first. My Chinese name is Lee Chun-Wah. Your grandfather's name would have been Hong York.
DeleteWhen choosing an English name the Chinese would choose an English name that would sound similar to their Chinese name. In Chinese there is no "Y" sounding consonant so the Chinese speaker would substitute a close Chinese equivalent in English that he could pronounce. "York" in Chinese pronunciation would sound like Jook and since he could not pronounce the "Y " sound, he choose the "J " sound and the name of John was a close approximation to York. He then used John Hong as his English name but if he were to follow the Chinese syntax, he would state his name as Hong John.
Karen: If you want to know how to trace your Chinese roots go to Al Chinn's website. He has good explanations on the historical migration of the Chinese from the Pearl river delta to the various parts of the world. Al gives directions on how to go about tracing your Chinese ancestry. I contacted Al Chinn about five years ago and he has now expanded his website and makes his money selling his genealogy books. His books are a little pricey for what you get but the provide you with a quick summary of the main lineage of your family tree. For a fee Al will translate old family documents, tombstones, etc and help trace your family tree. His email address is: http://twoupman.com
DeleteIn From China to Canada: A History of the Chinese Communities in Canada (1982) ISBN 0-7710-2241-7
ReplyDeleteThe first Chinese to come to North American came to California during the gold rush and many later came to Canada to follow the gold rush in the Klondike. Among the first wave of prospectors came a Chinese merchant, Ah Hong, an agent from a Chinese company in San Francisco, who was prospecting for business rather than for gold. His findings reported in the San Francisco Daily Globe on May 16, 1858, painted a sufficiently optimistic picture (he claimed to have been offered a job as a cook at twenty dollars per day) that soon many Chinese were travelling northward from California to Victoria.
Karen: Because the overseas Chinese came from the same county or village they could keep in contact with each other when they immigrated to the United States or Canada through their associations. There was the Hong or headquarters association (all Chinese workers used this as a mail drop to receive mail from China,the Benevolent association ( to help house new workers until they got work), the mutual aid society ( a cooperative where the Chinese gave out monetary loans to establish a business) and the secret society ( the masons who were the political society for the overthrow of the Ching government).
ReplyDeleteFor the Calgary Lees' 104th anniversary in celebration of the Lee Benevolent association I created a Calgary Lees' website that delineates the history of all the Chinatowns across Canada, a history of Chinese migration, a history of our ancestors, and family histories. In one section, I have written a story of my grandfather's journey to Canada.
http://lee-association-of-calgary.weebly.com/
This website interviews 13 Chinese Canadians who are descendants of Chinese who had to pay the head tax or were subject to the Chinese exclusion act. The same treatment was given to the American Chinese immigrant worker.
http://mhso.ca/tiesthatbind/
Karen: I have my own blogsite that has my Chinese genealogy on the site as well as other information about my career.
ReplyDeletehttp://mrleesblogsite.blogspot.ca/
Karen: I am currently trying to organize my third tour group of mainland China for a 21 day 8 eight province tour. I require 20 people to make this trip a reality from September 8 to 30 in 2014.. If I cannot get twenty people to sign up by April 30, I will cancel the tour. I journeyed to Fukien province in 2008 as a guest of 28 Chinese English teachers who I had toured around Alberta in 2007. For 15 days, I visited 10 cities, 3 world heritage sites, 2 islands and 2 river tours. During my visit , I met a tour operator for one of the largest domestic tour companies within China and was able to create customized tours of China directly with a Chinese tour operator. I have created these tours at cost price and I accompany the group because I like to tour China in a group.
ReplyDeleteIf you know of any group in the United States that would like to do a group tour of China , I could customize a tour . It would have to be a minimum group of 15.
Here is the itinerary of my current tour:
http://www.chinatowncalgary.com/assets/articles/alltheteainchinatour.html
http://www.alltheteainchinatour.blogspot.ca/
Heyyyy im australian but im descendant of a family from toishan. My last name is Lee however my ancestor was Charles Lee-Chew, Lishoo or Ah-Chew. Lee meaning plum i think. I do not have any chinese features. This is because my grandfathers great grandfather married a woman from England who had blonde hair and blue eyes. she was only 16 and he was 35 at the time of marriage. reason being was because he had a business. He would grow food, tea and herbs. He was also a gold miner and he dug alot of holes in the state of Victoria, Australian. He lived in a town called Bendigo. He is believed to be Toishan because majority of people who came to australian in 1840-50-60s where from that area looking for gold. he had a chinese wife and children but they died from Typhoid when they arrived to Australian mainland. Basically i been seeing all the comments here. I am wondering whether Charles is his real name? im confused with the name Lishoo. Is Li his name? and shoo his last name? remember his children had cut it down to just Lee because they wanted to be more European because of the pressures of the 'White Australian Policy'.
ReplyDeleteThe golden dragon musuem in bendigo did a family tree with us. They said we toishan/canton ?
DeleteLi would be your great grandfathers surname. Chew would be his first name. Chinese refer to each other by their surname first and their given name is second. He probably gave himself the name Charles but it sounded similar to his first name Chew. Li shoo is really Lee Chew. If you have some one write out the Chinese ideographs for Lee Chew (shoo) you could get an English translation of what his name means. Chinese names often have symbolic meanings.
DeleteThis site is awesome, I never used to term Toishanese or ever heard of it, we just called it Toisan. Family's from Hoy Ping province.
ReplyDeleteMy grandfather came to Canada in 1917 and paid the $500 head tax for Chinese immigrants to Canada and he brought most of the village here to Toronto.
Gayle. I received your email comment on my cell phone so I thought I would reply. My Grandfather Lee Duck came to Lethbridge in 1905. My grandfather came from 49 namtong village in Toison which is next to Hoy Ping. There are four counties that make up this area in the Pearl river delta. Hoy Ping is about 200 kilometers from Guanzhou if you take the expressway. This November on a China tour I organized, I took a side trip to #49 Namchung village to visit my grandfather's ancestral home. If you know the market day number of your village and village name you can actually find your village. I hired a guide and a bus driver and took a mini-bus ride to my grandfather's house which is still standing after over a 100 years. My grandfathers house is a four story concrete structure. My grandfather had four wives but only one wife in Canada which was my grandmother . My grandmother was bought and sold twice before my grandfather purchased her as his second wife. when I found my grandfathers house, I found a second cousin who is the grandson of my grandfather's brother using the house as a workshop. My guide could only speak Mandarin and English while my bus driver could speak Mandarin and Toison but no English. So through a three way translation I was able to communicate with my new found cousin. We are both the same age but he is weather worn while I am a plump Chinese Canadian. The Chinese kept very good records and it is possible to trace your heritage back many generations. I have traced my geneology back to Lao Tzu, Li Li Zhen and Huang Di. Did you know Huang Di the first yellow emperor of china had 25 sons through which fourteen of the most common Chinese surnames have originated such as Li, Chan, Yu, Wang, Wong, etc.
DeleteWhen I found the exact location of my grandfathers house and found the exact coordinates of latitude and longitude, I was able to use google maps and find my grandfathers house on google maps and see my grandfathers house from outer space. The amazing thing that the exact longitude of my grandfathers house if you went straight north and into Canada it passes right through Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada where my grandfather raised his Canadian family.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteWow, this is amazing. It's so nice to see other Taishanese descendants be interested in their histories. It really motivates me to practice Taishanese more. Should I make YouTube videos?
ReplyDeleteYes, I think you should. We would really appreciate it, and it would help keep it alive.
DeleteHello Kari, why not? If you have the time and skill, creating YouTube videos may help others as well.
ReplyDeleteHey I was wondering are they any children's books translated from English to Taishanese that you know of? Also, do public schools have programs like they do for English Language Learners for Taishanese like they do for Cantonese and Mandarin? Thank you!!
ReplyDeleteI believe everything is only written in Mandarin. Cantonese and Hoisan wah are spoken only.
DeleteI couldn't find any either. If anybody knows of any learning materials, please share. Thank you!
DeleteDid you know even in Hoisan wah, there are more then one dialect depending on which part you came from? My mom and dad are from Hoisan but pronounces words differently.
ReplyDeleteCorrect, Hang Ha Low. I may not understand it either.
DeleteThis site is very interesting. I was asked by my cousin (our ancestor is from Hoy Ping ) the difference between Toisan and Hoy Ping. Also, many of our Cantonese speaking friends think it is the same. I can speak Hoy Ping from my parents. Interesting to know if there is any big difference between the two.
ReplyDeleteSelwyn
Yes, I would also like to know more about Hoy Ping as well!
DeleteI think it's the next district over, very similar dialect. I do not have a profile, which is the best to use?
DeleteI was more interested in finding out where is Toisan/Taishan? Google Maps does not seem to know. Also, there is a lot of confusion due to different ways of writing the name using Roman characters. Do you have a location? Thanks.
ReplyDeleteIn Google map, just type in Taishan, Guangdon, China and you will see Taishan, Kaiping, Enping and Xinhui not too far from one another. Apparently these 4 counties are called 4-yap ( Cantonese)- the 4 counties. Jiangmen is the big city port nearby where all emigrants leave . Some one please comment or correct me if not right.
ReplyDeleteSelwyn ( Kaiping )
Thank you, Selwyn.
DeleteThank you all for sharing! 謝謝大家分享！I'm so glad there's a website like this to keep the language alive forever. May mainland China retain its dialects. This diversity is what makes China so rich in culture.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Melinda.
DeleteHello- I am also interested in learning more toisan. I know only a smattering of phrases (as well as numbers, colors, and names of some common things) but am told my pronunciation is good. I can't read any chinese, so does anyone know of a good phonetic dictionary online?
ReplyDeleteThe best way is to practice with people who speak toisan. Many workers in the Chinese grocery store, especially those deals with BBQ meats speak toisan once you speak or try to speak it. Dont use Cantonese because they will reply in Cantonese. I am having very good response in the Scarborough area. Even my young hair dresser speaks it and I learn lots while having my hair cut. Before, I only speak to my parents in kaiping ( very close to Toisan) and now I try it with all Chinese I come across to. Even some mandarin speakers may know Toisan bcause they came from the southern part of China. Just have a thick skin and try it and see their response. You will be surprise!
DeleteHi All: there is a new website: www.taishanproject.com
ReplyDeleteThere's over 500 photos of Taishan taken all over the city. The city is the over 1200 square miles. Enjoy!
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI am so glad you are current. Several years ago, I started to learn about my Hoisan heritage. I became proud that our forefathers built the transcontinental railroad, and with discrimination, were so industrious and treasured education, have produced teachers, engineers, medical, professionals in just one generations. I am no longer abashed to speak Hoisan-wa.....I am Hoisan proud. Member of groups: Housan Phrases, Chinatowns everywhere, NYC. Beginning to start learning history of China. It's kept me busy in my "Golden Age".
ReplyDeleteJust recently took a look around and so pleasantly surprised to see more and more info thanks to the Net. Wikipedia Taishan articles have good links such as http://taishanesetalk.blogspot.my/
ReplyDeleteI'm happily giving up some spare time to catch up.
"Hang ha lowAugust 9, 2016 at 12:40 AM
DeleteDid you know even in Hoisan wah, there are more then one dialect depending on which part you came from? My mom and dad are from Hoisan but pronounces words differently."
This is where one of our next tasks lies! My relatives speak four different varieties. The hardworking linguistic scholars here have each compiled material about one location but there is not enough information about the other districts. My family's pronunciation is quite different from what is published in the web blogs.
Hoisan, hoiping, senwei and yinping are 4 nearby districts (counties) and the dialects sound differently but they can understand one another. These 4 districts are called 4-yap in the quongdong province. Hoisan is the most popular among these 4 . Cantonese speaking people tend to lump them and just say you speak hoisan if you don't speak Cantonese or mandarine or other well known dilects like hagga etc. Some one correct me if I am not quite right.
Delete@Selwyn My previous comment was about my family's four types and they are all in one district, Taishan, never mind the other three. BTW the government now has added one more district so it is 5-Yap now.
ReplyDeleteYou are right. I learned that from a gentleman at the BBQ shop in Scarborough.
DeleteFor anybody in the Kuala Lumpur Malaysia area:
ReplyDeletePhillip Tan, local genealogy expert, will give a talk on Saturday, March 31, 2018, 7.00 pm to 9.00pm, regarding searching for your Chinese ancestral roots.
Read more: http://siyigenealogy.proboards.com/thread/2725/kuala-lumpur-searching-chinese-ancestry#ixzz58QJpZ1qV
Good post.
ReplyDeleteSo I’ve been watching a bunch of videos on YouTube about what Taishanese/Toisan etc. My grandparents claim Toisan and I distinctly remember them saying “Nay Ho” for hello vs “Ni ho.” Everything else sounds the same in terms of that guttural/lisp type sound though when they count to ten and say other phrases. Is it just over time and the predominance of mandarin that the Ni was incorporated instead of the Nay?
ReplyDeleteSince I was born, my grandmother always uses "Ni" to refer to "you." I am unsure of the history of this word.
DeleteNi is how my family says you in Toisanese or Hoisan Wah.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteMy grandparents also said "Nay Ho". Alot of their pronunciations were more similar to Cantonese rather than Mandarin.
DeleteAlso, my last name is Jean too!!
All over the region, from village to village, there are such variations of pronunciation. It would be nice if we could compile a map. The same thing happened millennia ago resulting in differences in the big northern group and southern coastal varieties so we get nei lei ni li etc. It's a universal human language process.
ReplyDeleteDear Gene,
DeleteYes, it would definitely be an interesting information to share.
Hi Karen, awesome blog. Great to know that there is a place for us ABC Toisans to go and 'shoot-the-crap'. My parents migrated to Canada where I was born. We then moved to the states when I was about 5. So, ABC or CBC fits me. Haha. Getting to know where my roots are has been something I would like to do. Thanks for the blog.
ReplyDeleteHope everyone has looked around Facebook. Many Taishan groups to join there.
DeleteHello, Special K. I hope to share and spread as much information as I can about this special dialect language. Thanks for visiting Toisan Descendant.
ReplyDeleteHi - glad I found this page - I'm Marjorie Lecker - a Toronto casting director and will be hiring Toisanese speakers for a short film shooting in Toronto and written and directed by award winning filmmaker Winnie Jong. I would love to connect with anyone who might be interested or who might know of anyone who would be - thanks - my email is mlecker@sympatico.ca
ReplyDeleteThanks for the message, Majorie. I will leave your message here in case there is anyone interested in this offer.
DeleteHow do you spell the name for my paternal grandmother? It’s something like ah ngin?
ReplyDeleteI have seen 人人 (ngin ngin) or 阿人 (Ah Ngin) from wiktionary.org.
DeleteAre there any instant translation devices that would allow an English speaker and Toisan speaker to converse
ReplyDeleteI do not know of any translation devices, but if anybody else knows, please reply here.
DeleteI just watched a video called "I try to learn Toisan" because the host cooks with his Grandma in most videos. And I just realized I understood several phrases his grandma said in Toisan because my own grandmother would say them. I wonder how many other Chinese born in other countries 40-60 years ago know that they have the Toisan language built into their history due to their grandparents.
ReplyDelete"I try to learn Toisan" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpBsZMMuRcs
DeleteI can make out everything except the last thing at the very end. Is it possible to repeat that slowly ?
ReplyDelete